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User talk:Miguel Wildthorn
Welcome Hi, welcome to Wizard 101 Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the User talk:Katherine Deathpants page. Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- ErinEmeraldflame (Talk) 04:38, September 20, 2010 :P.S. Always make sure to press the "Source" button in the upper right of the Edit window before making any edits. Not doing so messes up the code on the pages, thanks! Hi! Hi Miguel, I am online tonight actually, if you want to hatch. I have about 55,000 gold which I think should be enough, but otherwise let me know if it's not (I know Ice Hound has a high pedigree). Katherine Deathpants 01:11, September 28, 2010 (UTC) Hi, I am online... Send me a message, I am standing by. Katherine Deathpants 23:35, October 2, 2010 (UTC) Oh! I missed you! I am around most of today. I will try to find you. Miguel Wildthorn 21:01, October 3, 2010 (UTC) Okay, I am online now - meet me in the Pet Hatchery on the Wu realm! Katherine Deathpants 21:20, October 3, 2010 (UTC) Katherine Deathpants 21:43, October 3, 2010 (UTC) Reply here when you see this message, so I get an email notification, that way I will be there for sure. Katherine Deathpants 21:53, October 3, 2010 (UTC) I see it. OMW. Miguel Wildthorn 22:15, October 3, 2010 (UTC) Looks like you're afk, so I am posting here. Trying to do this hatch before my Internet goes out (bad weather has made it erratic recently). Katherine Deathpants 00:15, October 4, 2010 (UTC) Man, the fates do not want us to hatch today! :( Katherine Deathpants 00:36, October 4, 2010 (UTC) Thanks for hatching with me yesterday. I'm sorry, I forgot that we were going to hatch again today. Oh well. I hope your new Ice Hound learns cool talents! Katherine Deathpants 02:14, October 5, 2010 (UTC) Hybrid stats Yes, they can be quite variable, which is why the hybrid pet pages don't have stats or talents or abilities on them. ErinEmeraldflame 02:17, October 5, 2010 (UTC) Pip Boost vs Pip O'Plenty Actually, most of the Level 48 pets currently in the game have Pip Boost, since more people got those pets before the update than after, so the talent list for those pets is actually quite relevant. I am working on modifying the template to accommodate multiple lists for those differences, until then we are asking people to post the differences on the Talk pages of the pet pages so that we can more easily accommodate the differences. Thanks, ErinEmeraldflame 02:22, October 5, 2010 (UTC) I think it's misleading to indicate that it's common to have both. Yes, many people have the pre-update pet, but those pets won't have Pip O'Plenty. I would put the current version of the pet on the main page and the obsolete, pre-update version with Pip Boost on the Talk page. But that's just me. :-) Miguel Wildthorn 03:06, October 5, 2010 (UTC) I don't actually think its misleading, I think only having one is misleading. In fact, every single time one version has been represented over the other (based on who edited the pet's page first), people have complained about the Talents being wrong. This has included users with pre-update and post-update pets. Also, I guarantee if we pick one, the other people will still continue to update the pages with the other's information, making it impossible to get a right answer in the end. And since pre-update pets still outnumber post-update pets and will for a long while yet, but people will be training up new post-update pets, the battle could go on forever. This is made more problematic because that one talent isn't the only difference between them; the entire Talent pedigree is somewhat different for each version of the pet, (In fact the Hydra has four different versions at least over two different pedigrees) meaning that at least half the Talent slots are different for each version. So through many conversations and recommendations, the consensus has been to allow both on one page, that way it is clearest to everybody. Now I just need to write the code for it. :) ErinEmeraldflame 03:49, October 5, 2010 (UTC) It's definitely misleading to imply that a 1st generation pet has both Pip O'Plenty and Pip Boost in the petnome. But, it's your site, so I'm not going to quibble with you about how to handle it. :-) Miguel Wildthorn] 16:35, October 5, 2010 (UTC) First, please note that changes to the pet template have already been made. If it is so misleading to have both of those things on the same list, then the only solution is to ban all users from editing the page directly, delete all the edits that resulted from that, and only allow select people to make edits, which are all against the concept of the Wiki. The original page clearly stated for awhile what version was to be posted there, but that made no difference (even with only a dozen total editors). Which is why I explained to you that that part of the page was in the process of being completely redone to account for that. Please have some patience as these things take time, especially when the people programming the code are three volunteers on a large, busy website. The best solution, which is the one we encouraged, is to allow people to post their variations and encourage discussion on the topic. In fact, by using that methodology, and then updating the page, the Helephant (Pet) page is now the most accurate rendition of the pet on any of the fansites. If this method of constructive discussion had been used on other pages as opposed to people only providing comments on what they didn't like or wanted removed, then the other pages would be as good as the Helephant pet's page. You solution to remove one and replace it with the other was simply wrong for multiple reasons. First, the talent would have been in the wrong place, confusing the entire pedigree. Second, this would have caused cascading problems through the pedigree as future edits were made (as was evidenced on the Helephant pet's page). Additionally, choosing one over the other is far more misleading, as the users with the other one will still edit the pages with differing information (as again was evidenced on several pages). Finally, deleting information from the Wiki never helps anyone unless the information is fundamentally wrong. Pip Boost still exists and carries through with breeding, so the pedigree for pre-update pets is very important. It is more so because at least one person has said that one of the pre-update pets CAN actually have both pip talents at the first-generation, making your thesis statement incorrect. Thanks, ErinEmeraldflame 17:17, October 5, 2010 (UTC) Hi: I don’t want to add to the confusion of Pip Boost and Pip O’Plenty but it does seem that the older pets received prior to update can receive both these talents. My helephant has both the 5% pip boost and a 4% Pip O’plenty talent, however Jordan, my fire wizard, only gets a grand total of 8% pip bonus overall. It seems to me at least the pip bonus no matter from what talent a pet gets it from will be a maxed bonus of 8%. Does this make sense to anyone else? --Aclownatbest 18:39, October 5, 2010 (UTC) You're not adding any confusion actually, that can really help things out a lot. I did mention that pets from before the update can have both talents, but we just hadn't confirmed whether it was true for the Helephant, which further makes the combination not misleading. Which slot did the pre-update Helephant have Pip'O Plenty in? (I also asked this on your talk page). Thanks for you edit :), ErinEmeraldflame 18:58, October 5, 2010 (UTC) I don't think my "thesis statement" says it is impossible for a 1st generation pet to have both in the petnome. It is possible for humans to be born with tails. It is possible for humans to be born as conjoined twins. I wouldn't put up an image of either as indicative of what humans look like. It is not common, nor should it be expected by the average player to currently acquire a 1st generation L48 pet with both Pip O'Plenty and Pip Boost. I consider having both shown in the the list of Talents to be just as fundamentally wrong as using an image of conjoined twins as the generic picture for humans. Which is why I suggested that Pip Boost be removed. I'm pretty sure that Pip O'Plenty is indeed currently in slot 1. Which is where it was shown on the wikia page and why I suggested Pip Boost be removed; not replaced. Pip Boost is historical and obsolete. It should get a mention, but not included in the list as something one should expect from a current (post-update) pet. If you have a different perspective, that is fine with me. I'm providing more details about my perspective, but I concede the debate to you. Miguel Wildthorn 22:34, October 6, 2010 (UTC) Doom Scurrier vs. Black Widow KingsIsle hasn't changed the names of any pets as far as we know. They may have replaced them with one of a new name, but the originals still exist under the old name making them different pets. Only if the entire pedigree and snack likes and source turn out to be the same could we consider have one page for both of them (or if KingsIsle officially posts an update saying the name was changed). Its a standard issue on the Wiki with all retired items. ErinEmeraldflame 04:00, October 5, 2010 (UTC) P.S. Please don't delete your old message to replace it with a new one, just add a new message, thanks :) KI has definitely changed the names of pets. Dark Sprite with card was changed to Midnight Sprite, for instance. The originals still existing isn't as important as the current name of the pet that is dropped by the boss. Wikia states that Doom Scurrier is dropped by the Black Widow. I don't believe that is currently the case. I think she only drops the Black Spider. But, again, your site. You can run it however you like. Miguel Wildthorn 16:45, October 5, 2010 (UTC) No, they didn't KingsIsle absolutely, positively did not change the name of the Dark Sprite to Midnight Sprite. They are totally different pets with different pedigrees, ability lists, and hatch times who are also dropped by two different bosses as was confirmed through research done by one of the Wiki's users. Please do not make false claims based upon your assumptions as opposed to in-game experience. Beliefs don't matter on an encyclopedic website, evidence matters, and so far the evidence has contradicted your very strong assertions. If a boss drop changes (which happened a lot this summer), those can easily be changed on the boss's page if someone shows that they have changed. This means someone has to battle the bosses to see what they drop or KingsIsle has to tell us directly. Unfortunately, it takes a large number of fights to show that something does not drop anymore, since drop odds for rare pets are often easily less than 1 out of 300 times. Such a change would go on the boss's page, but the drop would remain on the pet's page as a retired source (unless the pet's drop source changed, in which case it can be changed). And finally, it is not our site, nor your site, nor anyone's. The goal of the site is to accommodate the factual information from the game in the best structure and organization possible. It happens to fall to the admins and more experienced users to create that structure and organization to facilitate entry of accurate content. By necessity and due to a lack of total knowledge about KingsIsle's inner secrets, judgements cannot be made based upon supposition. Please do not make statements such as "You can run it however you like" as they are antagonistic and rude, especially when you are using them to follow a false claim based upon assumption as opposed to fact. Thanks, ErinEmeraldflame 18:58, October 5, 2010 (UTC) Actually, they absolutely did change the name from Dark Sprite to Midnight Sprite. There used to be a Dark Sprite with the same pedigree, petnome and card as the Midnight Sprite. The name of that pet was later changed from Dark Sprite to Midnight Sprite. They are now completely different pets -different pedigree, different stats,one with card/the other without card- but that was not always the case. It's not a "false claim based on assumptions". I've seen the screenshots. In my view, it is highly, and actually offensively, misleading to indicate that the average person should expect to have both Pip O'Plenty and Pip Boost in a 1st generation petnome. It is possible for some 1st generation pets, and even some Hybrids, acquired during a certain period. And that was due to a bug rather than by intention. It is not currently the case, nor indicative of how the pet was ever intended to be. But the fact remains that it is your site - you are the one determining how the code works and what should and should not remain in the template. If you are determined that the template should remain that way, it's fine with me. I made the statement because I want to avoid people becoming more frustrated at not getting the (uber) Talents they expect. Especially when people start spending money to try to Hatch a pet with Pip Boost and Pip O'Plenty. I would not want to be in any way responsible for sending such a misleading message and I would do everything in my power to ensure that it doesn't happen. But that is me. You are not me and are free to have a different perspective. And that is the acknowledgment that I have offered - there is nothing antagonistic about it on my end. I am simply acknowledging that I accept that you can handle the issue(s) however you think is best. I'm agreeing to disagree. With regard to the Black Spider, I asked a question. Is the Black Spider a different pet than the Doom Scurrier or is it just a name change? As far as I can tell it is just the same pet with a name change. Same stats, same petnome and same card given at the same age. Just as there used to be a Dark Sprite with the same stats, same petnome and same card as the Midnight Sprite. Just because you are not aware that was the case does not make my claim false. Nor does it address the primary question: Is there a difference between the Black Spider and Doom Scurrier beyond the name? It seems to me to just be a name change and that it is now just the Black Spider that drops. If you know that the Doom Scurrier still drops - great. If you don't know, my question should give you an opportunity to investigate. If you want to just assume that the pets are different and both drop - well, that's actually fine with me too. I'd prefer not to argue about it. From my perspective, your responses have been tinged with antagonism - which is why I've been trying to back away with - "you are free to handle things however you wish, I'm just trying to share info to avoid frustration for the users." Miguel Wildthorn 19:04, October 6, 2010 (UTC) Card-Giving Talents and May Cast Talents Thank you, no one had previously posted this distinction on the Wiki. In the first descriptions of these talents on the Wiki, this distinction was not made so it was not accommodated in the templates. (And for every one of those Talents that I have, they are all bugged so I have never seen any in action) The template has been changed and the new category has been made. Changing Card to Cast in the type line on the PetAbility template will change the page and categories. I fixed Spritely though other May Cast spells are still currently listed as Card spells. Do you know if the card-givers give an Item Card (blue) or a Spell Card (Normal)? ErinEmeraldflame 22:39, October 6, 2010 (UTC) (Always welcome, of course) They show a blue card in the mouse-overs. Miguel Wildthorn 22:43, October 6, 2010 (UTC) Miguel Wildthorn Important: Please read this forum post and comment Forum:Major_Changes!_Please_Read! ErinEmeraldflame 05:37, October 8, 2010 (UTC) and the other Administrators